After last week’s post on the practice of knowing what to overlook as an important component of wisdom and peace of mind, I decided to do a follow-up on the subject of Retribution.
Wow. This was a brilliant deep dive. Thank you! Engaged my brain and made me think!!
In a much smaller sphere, as someone who has researched, written, and worked with juveniles on bullying issues:
Getting even (often a parental response) is tempting but unhelpful. It merely escalates negativity.
Ignoring (often an educational response) also does not work - it simply spreads the sphere of bullying wider.
Zero tolerance = zero understanding.
Restorative justice in schools (borrowed from the penal system) is poorly translated into a school system where perpetrator and victim are together every day, and is almost universally disliked by young people.
Collaborative group work and removing individual competition and reward for group resources and attention seemed the only way forward.
Thank you, dear Emily, for sharing your experience in the school system with its attempt at Restorative Justice.
In my country, there is no agreed upon definition or approach to bullying. IMHO, whole systems step into a simple kid squabble and kids don't have the opportunity to settle it among themselves.
Life certainly has gotten complicated since we were growing up.
Regarding the practical problem of retributive justice when the crime has harmed hundreds of thousands or more, I have friends who volunteer with an organization that works to memorialize the victims of lynching in my county. This is a very interesting analysis, Frances, and I learned a lot -- thank you. I'm still reading your post from yesterday, and enjoying it, and I'm so impressed with you writing!
Aww’ thank you for the compliment, Elizabeth. Am glad I didn’t sound too preachy. Working on another post in the Berkshires where I’m spending the week b/c of . I used to live here and it’s another world.
Questions I have been tussling with for all (or most) of my adult life, and there are no easy answers. I just live with the questions and try to hold them in mind for another, perhaps wiser day.
I cannot in good faith embrace any approach that ignores the suffering of victims - their suffering must be recognized, and retributive systems do that. There is also merit in retributive frameworks in that they (theoretically anyway) refuse to punish someone more than their offence deserves - even when severe punishments are convenient for the society in which the offence was committed. There must always be ethical boundaries, and retribution embraces fairness as other systems of punishment do not.
There is, however, no rehabilitation in retributive systems, and there is little or no justice. Social inequality means some of us are punished more than others, and that is appalling. As you put it so eloquently: “Retributive logic applied through a biased system produces injustice in the name of justice”.
I knew you would respond, dear Cate, and thank you for your thoughtful words. It’s so heartening to learn others share these questions and have wrestled with the conundrum of how a culture cannot turn away from all the ‘thems’ who have suffered while at the same time acknowledging that violence is often born in the crucible of inequality and suffering. We’ve made rather a mess of all of this. I hope wiser minds than mine will find a better way.
Good on you for doing such a deep dive on this complex issue. I appreciate your heart’s desire in wrestling with this concern. Clearly, your own lived experience is meaningful and speaks to the thorny nature of retribution. I am a passionate person and when I ‘get my Irish up’, as the saying goes I can follow my emotions down the retribution rabbit hole too. Still, I don’t act on those emotions mostly because I know how flawed I am and reckon a pause is wise till I’m calmer. And I have worked in community conflict resolution - victim offender programs - so I know just enough to know how much I don’t know. So, for me this issue is a paradox. And, I lean into bringing it as close to me as I can where I hold it and live with it. Perhaps it is a both and scenario and that tension must be held. That said we are the remedy for the unbridled cruelty of this moment. Absolute power corrupts absolutely - who among us wants to wield that power? … hmm… I say we the people so hopefully, we will engage with each other like this.🙏🏻 sorry for the rambling response 😚
Thank you very much for your engagement with this topic which, as you rightly note, to hold and live with the paradox of retribution and the tensions in conflict resolution. No, no. your comment was not rambling at all.
It's, in my mind, impossible to formulate succinct responses on such topics. The fact that we can engage at all with these situations shows a willingness to engage with one another.
I appreciate more than you know, your presence here.
Wow. This was a brilliant deep dive. Thank you! Engaged my brain and made me think!!
In a much smaller sphere, as someone who has researched, written, and worked with juveniles on bullying issues:
Getting even (often a parental response) is tempting but unhelpful. It merely escalates negativity.
Ignoring (often an educational response) also does not work - it simply spreads the sphere of bullying wider.
Zero tolerance = zero understanding.
Restorative justice in schools (borrowed from the penal system) is poorly translated into a school system where perpetrator and victim are together every day, and is almost universally disliked by young people.
Collaborative group work and removing individual competition and reward for group resources and attention seemed the only way forward.
Thank you, dear Emily, for sharing your experience in the school system with its attempt at Restorative Justice.
In my country, there is no agreed upon definition or approach to bullying. IMHO, whole systems step into a simple kid squabble and kids don't have the opportunity to settle it among themselves.
Life certainly has gotten complicated since we were growing up.
Regarding the practical problem of retributive justice when the crime has harmed hundreds of thousands or more, I have friends who volunteer with an organization that works to memorialize the victims of lynching in my county. This is a very interesting analysis, Frances, and I learned a lot -- thank you. I'm still reading your post from yesterday, and enjoying it, and I'm so impressed with you writing!
Aww’ thank you for the compliment, Elizabeth. Am glad I didn’t sound too preachy. Working on another post in the Berkshires where I’m spending the week b/c of . I used to live here and it’s another world.
Questions I have been tussling with for all (or most) of my adult life, and there are no easy answers. I just live with the questions and try to hold them in mind for another, perhaps wiser day.
I cannot in good faith embrace any approach that ignores the suffering of victims - their suffering must be recognized, and retributive systems do that. There is also merit in retributive frameworks in that they (theoretically anyway) refuse to punish someone more than their offence deserves - even when severe punishments are convenient for the society in which the offence was committed. There must always be ethical boundaries, and retribution embraces fairness as other systems of punishment do not.
There is, however, no rehabilitation in retributive systems, and there is little or no justice. Social inequality means some of us are punished more than others, and that is appalling. As you put it so eloquently: “Retributive logic applied through a biased system produces injustice in the name of justice”.
I knew you would respond, dear Cate, and thank you for your thoughtful words. It’s so heartening to learn others share these questions and have wrestled with the conundrum of how a culture cannot turn away from all the ‘thems’ who have suffered while at the same time acknowledging that violence is often born in the crucible of inequality and suffering. We’ve made rather a mess of all of this. I hope wiser minds than mine will find a better way.
xx
Good on you for doing such a deep dive on this complex issue. I appreciate your heart’s desire in wrestling with this concern. Clearly, your own lived experience is meaningful and speaks to the thorny nature of retribution. I am a passionate person and when I ‘get my Irish up’, as the saying goes I can follow my emotions down the retribution rabbit hole too. Still, I don’t act on those emotions mostly because I know how flawed I am and reckon a pause is wise till I’m calmer. And I have worked in community conflict resolution - victim offender programs - so I know just enough to know how much I don’t know. So, for me this issue is a paradox. And, I lean into bringing it as close to me as I can where I hold it and live with it. Perhaps it is a both and scenario and that tension must be held. That said we are the remedy for the unbridled cruelty of this moment. Absolute power corrupts absolutely - who among us wants to wield that power? … hmm… I say we the people so hopefully, we will engage with each other like this.🙏🏻 sorry for the rambling response 😚
A bit of Robert Frost as I recollect it:
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
Thank you very much for your engagement with this topic which, as you rightly note, to hold and live with the paradox of retribution and the tensions in conflict resolution. No, no. your comment was not rambling at all.
It's, in my mind, impossible to formulate succinct responses on such topics. The fact that we can engage at all with these situations shows a willingness to engage with one another.
I appreciate more than you know, your presence here.
xx